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Re: [OM] Paul Van T.

Subject: Re: [OM] Paul Van T.
From: "R. Lee Hawkins" <lhawkins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:49:10 -0500
Cc: lhawkins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In your message dated: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:14:29 EST you write:
>R. Lee Hawkins <lhawkins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>One of the greatest powers of the internet is the capability to share
>information quickly and freely.  The truly operative word there is "freely".
>Without that freedom, this list might not even exist.

True...

>
>PvT's usage of " ! " marks may not be proper application of punctuation in
>the English language, but he is free to do so - it is *his* style.  His
>responses of "I have one of these available for $x.xx" may not have

No, it doesn't, and is blatantly commercial, which, since this list is
hosted by an educational institution, is not a good idea.  If the list
becomes predominantly commercial in nature (meaning lots of vendors
follow Paul's lead and flood the list with  "Hey I've got that
postings"), then Shawn might well decide that the *educational* purpose
of the list is gone, and drop it.

>technical content, but neither does a vigorous thread (which I heartily
>enjoyed btw) on how to find a good deal in garage sales.  As with any other

No, that didn't have *technical* content, but it did have *educational*
content.  This is not true of most of Paul's posts.

>participant of this list, Paul is free to do and say what he pleases.  As
>long as this remains a free country, he has that right.

This is a free country, but even in a free country, we are allowed to
have standards if we as a group here wish to.   This list is intended to
be educational, not commercial.  Paul has crossed that line, and we need
to make a decision as a group (Shawn, wanna give us an opinion on this?)
as to whether this thing should be allowed.  Why?  Because if we let
Paul do it, we have to let *every* vendor do it, and then the list will
quickly just become an advertisement list.  And if that happens, I'm
history.

>
>Remember also, we all have a delete key on our keyboards.  *You* have the
>choice - the power- to simply delete any and every message with "Paul Van
>Tuyl" in the From: section.  Just zap him.  No stress, no strain, no fuss.

That's not my point.  Of course I can.  But if I have to start zapping
90 out of 100 posts, is the list really still worth reading?  Probably
not.

>If his messages bother you that much, I encourage you to do exactly that.
>However, it is fundamentally wrong to attempt to ban PvT, or any other
>person, from this list as long as it remains open to all interested persons.

I don't wish to ban Paul, I just want him to restrict him to
*educational* activities, which is the purpose of this list.  The main
reason I and many others don't read usenet much anymore is because the
commercial content is now so overwelming, there is little useful.
Please, let's not let this list sink to the level of usenet.

>Alternatively,  the list could be made private - and have each subscriber
>agree to and sign a Code of Conduct contract.  Then you would have some
>basis for due process to remove those who are hard to tolerate.  But I'm
>afraid that would also greatly diminish the value of this fine list and
>ultimately kill it.

I think that everyone here got along quite well before Paul.  And even
after people complained about him, he seemed to be restraining himself,
and even said "I've decided to not post any more commercial posts to the
list".  I respected him for doing that, when it was clear the consensus
felt that commercial posts were out of place.  However, starting last
week, he broke his word, and started to get commercial again.  This is
what is bothering me.

>
>Freedom of speech is priceless.  It must be protected absolutely.  And in
>the process, we must tolerate what, at times, feel like abuses.  Whether I
>agree with Paul or Lee or anyone else, or not, is irrelevant.  Each of us
>has the hard won right to speak freely.

You are exaggerating a bit here.  I don't wish to ban or muffle Paul,
just to have him restrict his posts to non-commercial activities.
Educational activities about Oly are the stated purpose of this list,
and should remain so, IMHO.  If the consensus wants to change that,
fine, but I'm not convinced it does.

Cheers,
--Lee

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