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Re: [OM] Paul Van T.

Subject: Re: [OM] Paul Van T.
From: Paul Van Tuyl <olympusguy@xxxxxxxx>
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:23:33 -0600
Ok, ok, now you guys tell me is this a commercial ad or am I just trying to look
out for the Group? I have been able to get two more of the really great ARTIC
RHAPSODY calendars for 1998 by OLYMPUS. The one that is "Through the eyes of
Michio Hoshino".

I will mail these for just the $3 u.s. mailing cost to anyone in the USA, or $10
outside the USA. So many people where trying to get them and could not, so I
bugged the OLY people and scrounged these two additional calendars to the ones I
sent out earlier.

Well, am I a big wheeler dealer dripping with "commercialism"? I wonder if 
Monica
Lewinsky would want one of these? Paul.

R. Lee Hawkins wrote:

> In your message dated: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:14:29 EST you write:
> >R. Lee Hawkins <lhawkins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >One of the greatest powers of the internet is the capability to share
> >information quickly and freely.  The truly operative word there is "freely".
> >Without that freedom, this list might not even exist.
>
> True...
>
> >
> >PvT's usage of " ! " marks may not be proper application of punctuation in
> >the English language, but he is free to do so - it is *his* style.  His
> >responses of "I have one of these available for $x.xx" may not have
>
> No, it doesn't, and is blatantly commercial, which, since this list is
> hosted by an educational institution, is not a good idea.  If the list
> becomes predominantly commercial in nature (meaning lots of vendors
> follow Paul's lead and flood the list with  "Hey I've got that
> postings"), then Shawn might well decide that the *educational* purpose
> of the list is gone, and drop it.
>
> >technical content, but neither does a vigorous thread (which I heartily
> >enjoyed btw) on how to find a good deal in garage sales.  As with any other
>
> No, that didn't have *technical* content, but it did have *educational*
> content.  This is not true of most of Paul's posts.
>
> >participant of this list, Paul is free to do and say what he pleases.  As
> >long as this remains a free country, he has that right.
>
> This is a free country, but even in a free country, we are allowed to
> have standards if we as a group here wish to.   This list is intended to
> be educational, not commercial.  Paul has crossed that line, and we need
> to make a decision as a group (Shawn, wanna give us an opinion on this?)
> as to whether this thing should be allowed.  Why?  Because if we let
> Paul do it, we have to let *every* vendor do it, and then the list will
> quickly just become an advertisement list.  And if that happens, I'm
> history.
>
> >
> >Remember also, we all have a delete key on our keyboards.  *You* have the
> >choice - the power- to simply delete any and every message with "Paul Van
> >Tuyl" in the From: section.  Just zap him.  No stress, no strain, no fuss.
>
> That's not my point.  Of course I can.  But if I have to start zapping
> 90 out of 100 posts, is the list really still worth reading?  Probably
> not.
>
> >If his messages bother you that much, I encourage you to do exactly that.
> >However, it is fundamentally wrong to attempt to ban PvT, or any other
> >person, from this list as long as it remains open to all interested persons.
>
> I don't wish to ban Paul, I just want him to restrict him to
> *educational* activities, which is the purpose of this list.  The main
> reason I and many others don't read usenet much anymore is because the
> commercial content is now so overwelming, there is little useful.
> Please, let's not let this list sink to the level of usenet.
>
> >Alternatively,  the list could be made private - and have each subscriber
> >agree to and sign a Code of Conduct contract.  Then you would have some
> >basis for due process to remove those who are hard to tolerate.  But I'm
> >afraid that would also greatly diminish the value of this fine list and
> >ultimately kill it.
>
> I think that everyone here got along quite well before Paul.  And even
> after people complained about him, he seemed to be restraining himself,
> and even said "I've decided to not post any more commercial posts to the
> list".  I respected him for doing that, when it was clear the consensus
> felt that commercial posts were out of place.  However, starting last
> week, he broke his word, and started to get commercial again.  This is
> what is bothering me.
>
> >
> >Freedom of speech is priceless.  It must be protected absolutely.  And in
> >the process, we must tolerate what, at times, feel like abuses.  Whether I
> >agree with Paul or Lee or anyone else, or not, is irrelevant.  Each of us
> >has the hard won right to speak freely.
>
> You are exaggerating a bit here.  I don't wish to ban or muffle Paul,
> just to have him restrict his posts to non-commercial activities.
> Educational activities about Oly are the stated purpose of this list,
> and should remain so, IMHO.  If the consensus wants to change that,
> fine, but I'm not convinced it does.
>
> Cheers,
> --Lee
>
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