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[OM] Re: Remote flash: was It is now official ...

Subject: [OM] Re: Remote flash: was It is now official ...
From: Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:35:50 -0400
And here's the next question and answer.
---------------------------------------------
Hey Chuck,
        The reason it is ever brought up, by us or others, is if the sync speed 
is right on the threshold, then some devices may introduce a lag or 
latency, therefore effectively lowering your sync speed. The 1/3 to 1 
stop variation we and other manufacturers include is more of a buffer 
zone, that way if there is one anomaly, we can't get blamed for false 
advertising. I hope this helps explain it a little more clearly. If we 
can be of any further assistance, please let us know!

Thanks again,
David
Customer Service
Paul C. Buff, Inc.
White-lightning/Alienbees/Zeus

Check out our forum at:
http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Norcutt [mailto:chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:59 PM
To: info at Paul C Buff.com
Subject: Re: Cybersync x-sync question

That doesn't really explain what I asked but at least I know to ignore
the manual on max sync speed.

Thanks,
Chuck Norcutt
--------------------------------------------



Chuck Norcutt wrote:
> Here's the response from Paul Buff.  Doesn't really answer the question 
> but at least lets me know to ignore the manual with respect to max sync. 
>   The link is to a video by David Ziser.  I've known about the technique 
> but never tried it or seen it so thoroughly explained.
> -----------------------------------------
> Hey Chuck,    
>       Thanks for contacting us! Sorry for the confusion! I believe we
> wrote the manuals before we were able to test at such high speeds (in a
> practical environment). Plus we specify this because even the camera
> manufacturers specify this in their manuals as well. In the real world, 
> I have not heard of any of our customers, nor have I seen with my own, 
> any example of not reaching maximum sync. Also, since you use your bees 
> out doors, you may find this video of interest, and apologies if you 
> have seen it:
> <http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/10/great-video-on-overclocking-your-sync.html>
>  
> 
> 
> I hope this helps and clears up confusion, but if we can be of any
> additional assistance, please let us know!
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> David
> Customer Service
> Paul C. Buff, Inc.
> White-lightning/Alienbees/Zeus
> 
> Check out our forum at:
> http://www.paulcbuff.com/forums
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Chuck Norcutt
> 
> 
> 
> Chuck Norcutt wrote:
>> The key here is your assumption about data rate.  I don't know the 
>> answer.  I've sent the following note to Paul Buff tech support.  I'll 
>> post the response when I get it.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> In the Cybersync user's manual and in the frequently asked questions 
>> pages on your web site there are statements that the Cybersync has a 
>> 1/4000 sec. latency and can sync as fast as 1/2500 sec.  Then the user's 
>> manual continues with a recommendation that, when using the Cybersyc, 
>> the camera's shutter speed should be set 1/3 to 2/3 stop slower than the 
>> camera's maximum sync speed.  The specific example given is that a 
>> camera with a max sync speed of 1/250 second be set to 1/200 or 1/160.
>>
>> I don't understand "latency" here or sync as fast as 1/2500 followed by 
>> a recommendation to use less than 1/10th that speed.  I understand that 
>> the camera in this case can't be set faster than its maximum x-sync 
>> speed of 1/250 but why does it need to be set even slower?  More 
>> specifically, what does that mean for my Canon 5D with max sync speed of 
>> 1/200 second?  Do I need to use 1/160 or slower?  If the camera with 
>> 1/250 max sync speed can use 1/200 why can't I?  An, once again, why 
>> can't the 1/250 camera use 1/250 if the Cybersync can sync at up to 1/2500?
>>
>> What don't I understand here?  I do use my Bees outdoors for fill flash 
>> with large groups and every 1/3 stop is important.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chuck Norcutt
>> Endwell, NY
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken Norton wrote:
>>> Chuck, I believe the latency numbers are calculated theoretical minimums.
>>> Kinda like how Behringer calculates the specs for their audio products.  ;/
>>>
>>> Just thinking off the top of my head:
>>>
>>> 1. Transmit rate is most likely no higher than 9600 baud.
>>> 2. Datagram could be like four bytes or 32 bits.
>>> 3. The entire datagram would take 1/300 of a second to transmit
>>> 4. To achieve 1/4000 of a second, they could only be transmitting two
>>> bits--not including ANY processing time.
>>> 5. It is impossible to provide adequate channel assignment and protection
>>> from falsing with only two bits.
>>> 6. If one were to do this with ONE byte datagrams, at 9600 bps, it would
>>> take 1/1200 of a second for transmittion of the datagram.
>>> 7. These triggers are required to operate in the ISM (Industrial,
>>> Scientific, Medical) bands. As such, there is plenty of other data
>>> interference in the air on those same frequencies, so you'd need a larger
>>> datagram to coexist with other wireless devices.
>>>
>>> To do this right with adequate falsing prevention, device control and
>>> assignment, I can't imagine trying to do this with fewer than 8-bits.
>>> Figuring a 50% overhead in detection and processing, it would take 1/800 of
>>> a second before the trigger would fire.  The next question is whether the
>>> trigger itself is transister-based or relay based?  Either way, you will
>>> have a ramp-time delay.
>>>
>>> Now, consider that a strobe fires in a non-linear manner with the bulk of
>>> the light emitted approximately 2/3 into the pulse.  Consider the other
>>> delays within the flash's electronics itself.  I've found that using my
>>> Minolta A1 as a test device when I fire strobes directly attached to the
>>> camera that I get varying response rates with some flashes fully
>>> illuminating the scene at 1/640 and others as low as 1/250.  Monolites seem
>>> to be worse than the Vivitars.  At 1/250 everything works with the A1, but
>>> if I'm using the ebay remotes, I need to back that off to 1/200 or less.
>>>
>>> Maybe Wayne can shed a little light in here on this subject, but I suspect
>>> that any claims of 1/4000 response are a "bit" optimistic.
>>>
>>> AG
>>>
>>>
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