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Re: [OM] The Gotcha of the Great

Subject: Re: [OM] The Gotcha of the Great
From: Chuck Norcutt <chucknorcutt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:50:08 -0400
Here's the original English with a bit more context:

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of 
learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and 
practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I 
often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and 
express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot 
measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of 
a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, 
but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, 
whatever the matter may be."  — Baron William Thomson Kelvin

Often seen quoted in a condensed form:If you cannot measure it, then it 
is not science.

 From 'Electrical Units of Measurement', a lecture delivered at the 
Institution of Civil Engineers, London (3 May 1883), Popular Lectures 
and Addresses (1889), Vol. 1, 73. Quoted in American Association for the 
Advancement of Science, Science (Jan-Jun 1892), 19, 127.

from <http://www.todayinsci.com/K/Kelvin_Lord/KelvinLord-Quotations.htm>
It also includes the famous (but apparently unsubstantiated statement) 
"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains 
is more and more precise measurement."

Chuck Norcutt


Joel Wilcox wrote:
> Lord Kelvin's words translated back into English:
> 
> "Say often that when you can measure what is spoken and expressed in
> numbers, we know something about it, but our knowledge is weak and
> unsatisfactory, while we can not express it in numbers, we can be the
> beginning of the knowledge, but our concepts will be advanced only in
> the way of the 'science', and that whatever the subject matter."
> 
> So much for Google translator!
> 
> But it may have helped me understand you, Fernando, a bit better.
> 
> Joel W.
> 
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Fernando Gonzalez
> Gentile<fgnzalez@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Interesting.
>>
>> I cannot feel the same (as far as I can understand) you do, Moose -
>> Regardless who is speaking, I (since some-time before this very moment)
>> tend to ignore the attribution of knowledge.
>> I'm tempted to self-explain why this is so for me. I know why, but never
>> wrote it down systematically. I could, but it would be valid for me
>> only. I'm not planning to write an autobiography, not yet ;-)
>> Just an example: a few minutes ago I read a sentence attributed to lord
>> Kelvin, written in Spanish (I will not translate it to English, that
>> would add more 'noise'): "Suelo decir, con frecuencia, que cuando se
>> puede medir aquello de que se habla y expresarlo en números, se sabe
>> algo sobre ello; pero nuestro saber es deficiente e insatisfactorio,
>> mientras no somos capaces de expresarlo en números; podemos estar en el
>> comienzo del conocimiento, pero nuestros conceptos apenas habrán habrán
>> avanzado en el camino de la 'ciencia', y esto cualquiera sea la materia
>> de que se trate".
>> I can clearly hear the value this statement has for lord Kelvin.
>> Then, it might be my own problem to asses how much value it has for me.
>> This puts lord Kelvin in a place of 'subject of supposed knowledge'. I
>> will explore his sentence, mostly in an unconscious way, and may be
>> somehow convinced and somehow not. And I will take care not to argue
>> lord Kelvin 'ad hominem'.
>>
>> Wow, I've written too much English today ;-)
>>
>> Fernando.
>>
>> Moose wrote:
>>> Another in an occasional series of objections to the attribution of
>>> knowledge, experience and opinions of another onto me.
>>>
>>>
>>>  But put in the way you so often do, as some
>>> universal experience, when so clearly some of it isn't, and you just
>>> piss me off, so I can't hear the value in what you say.
>>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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