You can call it talking past each other if you like. I was responding
to your comments about the "Alaskan Paradox". I was disputing Ignarro's
claim and I think I have shown from Ravnskov's work on cholesterol and
diet that the "Alaskan Paradox" is not a paradox at all. Sorry that
some of Ravnskov's links are dead. It's an old source and I didn't
check all of them.
I think we may as well end this. You can't convince me of any of your
points unless you can produce a scientific study that demonstrates the
efficacy of large doses of L-arginine and L-citrulline. I followed some
of your links (not all) and picked up especially on Dr. Victor J. Dzau
since he is prominently mentioned by Dr. Prendergast... "I learned about
l-arginine in 1991 when I was in a professional association teaching
physicians with Victor J. Dzau, MD when he was director of
Cardiovascular Research at Stanford University Medical Center."
I checked Pub Med and discovered that Dr. Dzau has 84 papers listed
there. I read the titles of all 84 papers as well as the abstracts of
some of them but found absolutely no mention of L-arginine or any other
dietary supplements for the treatment of cardiovascular disease. His
research appears to be primarily based on genetic and cell level therapies.
Chuck Norcutt
On 5/4/2013 9:53 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
> Chuck wrote
>>
>> You are deluding yourself. Who were the researchers, how was this
>> determined, where are their research papers and, especially, why is this
>> not the case with the Masai and Samburu peoples whose diet is largely
>> meat, milk and blood. They've never seen a seal or a whale let alone eat
>> one. :-) Dr. Ignarro *is* a research scientist. He not only should know
>> better but does. I think you do too.
>>
>> Try this on for size. <http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth3.htm> And please note
>> that it has actual research papers referenced to back up the data.
>>
>> Chuck Norcutt
>>
>>
>> On 5/3/2013 5:32 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
>>> I guess that one of the things I learned early in my academic life is
>>> that where there are divergent opinions, often the final answer lies
>>> somewhere in the middle.
>>>
>>> Before I forget, Dr Ignarro wrote in his book, page 143. Quote verbatim:
>>> THE ALASKAN PARADOX For many years, researchers were puzzled by the fact
>>> that the Eskimos of Greenland and the Native Americans in Alaska ate a
>>> substantial amount of whale blubber and seal meat and had very little
>>> heart disease. Finally they were able to solve the mystery. Among the
>>> fats in seal meat and whale blubber is a profusion of heart-healthy
>>> omega-3 fatty acids, which work to maintain low blood pressure and LDL
>>> cholesterol, while encouraging the body's natural production of HDL and
>>> discouraging the formation of plaque and blood clots in the
>>> cardiovascular system. End of quote. The limited selection of listed
>>> references do not include any to this.
>
> It seems to me that we are doing what I have heard called "talking past each
> other".
>
> I read through all the pages linked to that one you gave me by Ravnskov,
> and closely scanned the titles of practically all of the refs he quoted. I
> downloaded many of them and looked through them. And BTW, many of his
> links are dead.
>
> What I found is that all of the papers he quoted / referred to are concerned
> with such matters as fat, lipids, cholesterol, statins HDL, LDL, and so on.
>
> I did not find even one reference among them which mentioned nitric oxide,
> L-argenine or L-citrulline, or quoted Drs Muraz, Ignarro, Furchgott, the
> Nobel prize winners of 15 years ago, or the three prime researchers at
> Stanford mentioned by Dr Prendergast; John Farquar, head of preventable
> Medicine, Dr Victor Dzau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Dzau)
> http://www.choiceforliving.com/doctors_talk_details.php?id=2
> http://www.pmrf.org/projects/larginine.pdf ( has many references)
> http://www.erasedisease.com/resource/Dr_Joe_Open_Letter.pdf
> and Dr John Cooke.
>
> The material I have been looking at involves and protects the vascular
> system with NO, L-arginine and L-citrulline by preventing fats and
> cholesterol from causing damage to the endothelium, and where that
> damage exists, undoing it.
>
> So, if this essentially natural intervention takes place earlier in the damage
> sequence, what's the point in debating such things as cholesterol if they are
> thereby rendered powerless to do damage?
>
> I notice that Uffe Ravnskov uses references from a New Zealand academic
> - I might try discussing this with him - "William E. Stehbens is a professor
> at
> the Department of Pathology, Wellington School of Medicine, and director of
> the Malaghan Institute of Medical Research in Wellington, New Zealand".
>
> Brian Swale
>
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