I went back to PubMed looking for more specific references to L-arginine
supplementation. I stopped looking when I found this 2008 paper.
Abstract here: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18090660>
L-Arginine therapy in cardiovascular pathologies: beneficial or dangerous?
From the recent finding section: "In clinical trials short to
medium-term administration of L-arginine improved the symptoms of
cardiovascular disease. In other trials, however, L-arginine was not
beneficial and in one recent long-term study higher mortality of
subjects receiving L-arginine than those receiving placebo was reported."
I have no access to the full paper and don't know what studies are being
referenced. But I'm not looking any further.
Chuck Norcutt
On 5/4/2013 11:15 AM, Chuck Norcutt wrote:
> You can call it talking past each other if you like. I was responding
> to your comments about the "Alaskan Paradox". I was disputing Ignarro's
> claim and I think I have shown from Ravnskov's work on cholesterol and
> diet that the "Alaskan Paradox" is not a paradox at all. Sorry that
> some of Ravnskov's links are dead. It's an old source and I didn't
> check all of them.
>
> I think we may as well end this. You can't convince me of any of your
> points unless you can produce a scientific study that demonstrates the
> efficacy of large doses of L-arginine and L-citrulline. I followed some
> of your links (not all) and picked up especially on Dr. Victor J. Dzau
> since he is prominently mentioned by Dr. Prendergast... "I learned about
> l-arginine in 1991 when I was in a professional association teaching
> physicians with Victor J. Dzau, MD when he was director of
> Cardiovascular Research at Stanford University Medical Center."
>
> I checked Pub Med and discovered that Dr. Dzau has 84 papers listed
> there. I read the titles of all 84 papers as well as the abstracts of
> some of them but found absolutely no mention of L-arginine or any other
> dietary supplements for the treatment of cardiovascular disease. His
> research appears to be primarily based on genetic and cell level therapies.
>
> Chuck Norcutt
>
>
> On 5/4/2013 9:53 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
>> Chuck wrote
>>>
>>> You are deluding yourself. Who were the researchers, how was this
>>> determined, where are their research papers and, especially, why is this
>>> not the case with the Masai and Samburu peoples whose diet is largely
>>> meat, milk and blood. They've never seen a seal or a whale let alone eat
>>> one. :-) Dr. Ignarro *is* a research scientist. He not only should know
>>> better but does. I think you do too.
>>>
>>> Try this on for size. <http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth3.htm> And please note
>>> that it has actual research papers referenced to back up the data.
>>>
>>> Chuck Norcutt
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/3/2013 5:32 AM, Brian Swale wrote:
>>>> I guess that one of the things I learned early in my academic life is
>>>> that where there are divergent opinions, often the final answer lies
>>>> somewhere in the middle.
>>>>
>>>> Before I forget, Dr Ignarro wrote in his book, page 143. Quote verbatim:
>>>> THE ALASKAN PARADOX For many years, researchers were puzzled by the fact
>>>> that the Eskimos of Greenland and the Native Americans in Alaska ate a
>>>> substantial amount of whale blubber and seal meat and had very little
>>>> heart disease. Finally they were able to solve the mystery. Among the
>>>> fats in seal meat and whale blubber is a profusion of heart-healthy
>>>> omega-3 fatty acids, which work to maintain low blood pressure and LDL
>>>> cholesterol, while encouraging the body's natural production of HDL and
>>>> discouraging the formation of plaque and blood clots in the
>>>> cardiovascular system. End of quote. The limited selection of listed
>>>> references do not include any to this.
>>
>> It seems to me that we are doing what I have heard called "talking past each
>> other".
>>
>> I read through all the pages linked to that one you gave me by Ravnskov,
>> and closely scanned the titles of practically all of the refs he quoted. I
>> downloaded many of them and looked through them. And BTW, many of his
>> links are dead.
>>
>> What I found is that all of the papers he quoted / referred to are concerned
>> with such matters as fat, lipids, cholesterol, statins HDL, LDL, and so on.
>>
>> I did not find even one reference among them which mentioned nitric oxide,
>> L-argenine or L-citrulline, or quoted Drs Muraz, Ignarro, Furchgott, the
>> Nobel prize winners of 15 years ago, or the three prime researchers at
>> Stanford mentioned by Dr Prendergast; John Farquar, head of preventable
>> Medicine, Dr Victor Dzau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Dzau)
>> http://www.choiceforliving.com/doctors_talk_details.php?id=2
>> http://www.pmrf.org/projects/larginine.pdf ( has many references)
>> http://www.erasedisease.com/resource/Dr_Joe_Open_Letter.pdf
>> and Dr John Cooke.
>>
>> The material I have been looking at involves and protects the vascular
>> system with NO, L-arginine and L-citrulline by preventing fats and
>> cholesterol from causing damage to the endothelium, and where that
>> damage exists, undoing it.
>>
>> So, if this essentially natural intervention takes place earlier in the
>> damage
>> sequence, what's the point in debating such things as cholesterol if they are
>> thereby rendered powerless to do damage?
>>
>> I notice that Uffe Ravnskov uses references from a New Zealand academic
>> - I might try discussing this with him - "William E. Stehbens is a professor
>> at
>> the Department of Pathology, Wellington School of Medicine, and director of
>> the Malaghan Institute of Medical Research in Wellington, New Zealand".
>>
>> Brian Swale
>>
--
_________________________________________________________________
Options: http://lists.thomasclausen.net/mailman/listinfo/olympus
Archives: http://lists.thomasclausen.net/mailman/private/olympus/
Themed Olympus Photo Exhibition: http://www.tope.nl/
|