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Re: [OM] IMG: Slow Night

Subject: Re: [OM] IMG: Slow Night
From: Moose <olymoose@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2016 16:32:49 -0800
On 2/27/2016 2:00 PM, Bill Pearce wrote:
It is really important for Europeans to understand how helpful the US government is to its citizens. Which is to say it only does the barest minimum.

I can see where that idea comes from. OTOH, I think it's only partially true. I find the European model of a higher level of subsidized citizen care, funded by much higher taxes, rather attractive, without knowing the ins and outs intimately. But that difference, higher taxes, seems substantial.

I was able to stash pre-tax income in IRAs for much of my working life, where it was able to grow without being taxed. That was a pretty substantial lowering of tax to allow me to save for my retirement. There was a time, in the mid 70s, where our marginal Federal and State income tax rate was 51%. Not overall, mind you, but the system was more strongly progressive back then, we were both working professionals, and of the next $ we earned, 51¢ went to taxes. So any dollar we put into IRAs was the equivalent of $2, just to start. Then I have paid no income or capital gains taxes on that money over all these years as investments have been bought and sold, dividends paid, etc.

Now, those chickens have come home to roost. I am required to take out money and pay ordinary income tax on it, which raises my taxes and marginal tax rate, now and in the future. BUT, I've paid no taxes in the interim, and even my increased marginal rate now is lower than it would have been when the money was originally earned. I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how that compares to EU member retirement benefits. I do know that there is no such system there, and that people with limited knowledge and axes to grind tend to discount it. I know it makes a huge difference for some people here, including me.

And it fits both the broad 'Murkin ideals of individual choice and responsibility and the conservative Christian ideals that underlie so much of our culture, of reaping what one sows, and so on, and on. I chose to take advantage, even when it meant delaying or foregoing other things I wanted, and I'm in decent shape in retirement. Even when work was awful, I chose to hang in there. Others will have not done those things, and may be in more restricted financial circumstances as a result. And one of the things that drives some of 'Murkin conservatism is a deep sense that this is RIGHT and that rewarding those who didn't do it RIGHT, is WRONG. There is a fundamental social/cultural difference, which is at bottom comes out of a religious difference, I think. *

In the more socialist EU systems, both paying in and benefiting are less a matter of individual choice. How much better or worse off might I be, had I followed the same life arc in another system? NO IDEA.

Nor do I wish to promote any particular system. My ancient training as an economist and my experience of life make it clear to me that I don't know nearly enough to judge.

I only suggest that simplistic comparisons are almost certain to be wrong.

Moose D'Opinions


* Anyone who wonders how on earth so many of our poor, of those who are discriminated against, of impoverished seniors, and so on, can support our political right, might find answers in the religion of those who came over on the Mayflower, of Calvinism, and of the many fundamentalist Protestant factions that have shaped US society. There are a lot of folks suffering in various ways in this country who believe that it is a result of their own weaknesses, failings, sins and transgressions, even simply the nature of a world that their God has set as a test of suffering. Salvation in the afterlife, not manna in this one from the Guv'ment, is their goal.

Think all that stuff is old, or only Rural Southern, dying out? When I was a young man, we were all listening to Peter, Paul and Mary, and people still are on that liberal bastion, PBS, in endless concert repetitions.

I've known a lot of serious lefties, well, still do know a few. A lot of them feel that whenever they aren't furthering the 'cause', whatever theirs may be, that they are less than they should be. This ain't far from the concept of 'sin'. And it's sad when they got old and infirm, and feel they are 'bad' for not being able to do what they used to. And I don't mean intellectual feeling, it's emotional. Even when used in opposite political directions, these ideas of obligations to some greater power and sin in failing to always fulfill them, this stuff is still in the bones of US culture and society, even for those who are, or believe themselves to be, wholly secular. It is profoundly different from the secular legacies of Catholicism.

Sure, we were all energized by "If I Had a Hammer", and "Where Have All the Flowers Gone", but look at many of other songs on their best selling records. Here's one:

*"Morning Train"*

I'm goin' home on the morning train
I'm goin' home on the morning train
I'm goin' home on the morning train
If you don't see me you can hear me singing
All my sins been taken away, taken away.

Sister Mary wore three links of chain
Sister Mary wore three links of chain
Sister Mary wore three links of chain
On each link was my Jesus name
All my sins been taken away, taken away.

I'm on my way to the freedom land
I'm on my way to the freedom land
I'm on my way to the freedom land
Lord God Almighty hold my hand
All my sins been taken away, taken away.

Well I don't know but I been told
Streets in heaven paved in gold.
Keep your hand on that plow, hold on.
Hold on, hold on, keep your hand on that plow, hold on.

The devil he has a slippery shoe
And if you don't watch out he'll slip it on you
Keep your hand on that plow, hold on.
Hold on, hold on, keep your hand on that plow, hold on.

I'm goin' home on the morning train
I'm goin' home on the morning train
I'm goin' home on the morning train
If you don't see me you can hear me singing
All my sins been taken away, taken away.

--
What if the Hokey Pokey *IS* what it's all about?

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